and so this has what to do with dreaming?
i mean, what's best? only ever being a 'passenger' on your OWN ship and
not knowing where it's all going and hoping for the best, or taking charge
of it and steering the damn thing oneself?? :)
i mean, what's best? only ever being a 'passenger' on your OWN ship and
not knowing where it's all going and hoping for the best, or taking
charge
of it and steering the damn thing oneself?? :)
yes what is best is being in the drivers seat.
I agree. Being a passenger is helpless.
i mean, what's best? only ever being a 'passenger' on your OWN ship and
not knowing where it's all going and hoping for the best, or taking charge of it and steering the damn thing oneself?? :)
yes what is best is being in the drivers seat.
I agree. Being a passenger is helpless.
(By the way, I don't think everything's conscious.)
(By the way, I don't think everything's conscious.)
certainly not alot folks down in Washington, DC huh?
(couldn't pass that up)
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 3:33:27 PM UTC-8, wilddild wrote:
(By the way, I don't think everything's conscious.)
certainly not alot folks down in Washington, DC huh?
(couldn't pass that up)
Here's a question for people who believe it is meaningful
to speculate that 'everything is conscious'.
First, watch this Facebook video: https://www.facebook.com/ScienceNaturePage/videos/1268449219954000/
Now, answer the question:
When a person's brain is deprived of oxygen to the point that
the person goes unconscious (or dies), what does this
even mean if all of reality is supposedly 'conscious'?
Their entire body is still lying there, with all of its billions
of cells intact. But they're not conscious any more. If that
entire collection of cells is somehow 'conscious' (as it would
need to be if consciousness permeates all of reality),
then why is the person now unconscious (or dead)?? :)
I'm pointing out that a panpsychist (if there really are any)
must much more carefully define what is meant by the claim
that "consciousness permeates reality".
When I'm sound asleep in the deepest sleep stage, how am I
still conscious, if it's true that consciousness permeates
all of reality, including presumably the entire reality of
my sleeping self, which is STILL my complete collection of
living cells, just as it is when I am awake.
Conclusion:
I am not merely a conscious being. I am also an unconscious being.
"The combination problem." LOL. What an understatement.
As if somehow any 'conglomerate' of 'particles' can be conscious.
As if 'entanglement' necessarily implies consciousness or is
the most important factor related to it.
I don't think they have the slightest chance of illuminating
human consciousness without deeper knowledge of neurology.
Panpsychism is nothing but wild speculation at this point,
however difficult it may be for philosophers to intellectually
wrap their heads around consciousness.
Dualism is wrong. There's no good evidence of consciousness
separate from matter.
Strict materialism is also wrong. There's no evidence that
just any old 'conglomerate' of matter can become conscious.
You don't just pile up or 'entangle' more and more particles
to make more and more 'consciousness'. :)
Panpsychism is pure speculation based largely on principles of
quantum entanglement. Entirely premature and unsatisfying.
Something to make college students say "golly gee Mr.
Philosophy Prof".
Philosophers simply need to notice that a living brain is
much more than ANY of these concepts. A brain is an amazingly
complex living system with a billion year history of evolution.
Also... again:
I am not merely a conscious entity.
I am also an unconscious entity.
You don't just have to explain how it is that we are conscious.
You must also explain how we are also unconscious.
Humans (and other animals) are BOTH.
So we have to explain *unconsciousness* as well.
Consciousness is like a burning wood fire. It is not just
the wood that burns. Nor is it just the spark of energy that
ignites the wood. Nor is it only the oxygen that allows wood
to continue igniting in real time. The burning fire is the
full *process* of all three of these interacting - the wood,
the energy to ignite, the oxygen to keep the fire burning,
plus all the physical principles involved in that interaction,
which are the foundation of how our universe evolved. If you
take away ANY element, the fire dies, and ALL the elements
are necessary for the fire to burn.
It's as if philosophers are asking... what is the fire itself
apart from the wood, the energy to ignite, and oxygen feeding it?
But 'the fire' doesn't really have an 'essence' or a separate
explanation apart from the entire process involved in its burning.
Human consciousness is similar. It requires physical systems
of cellular organization that evolved over hundreds of millions
of years; it requires the input energy of air, water and food;
and it requires all the principles involved in *how* these things
evolved to interact, as well as the full *process* of how these
systems continually *do* interact in real-time.
Thus, consciousness is a major aspect of the ongoing process
of LIFE. Just as with fire, if you take away our oxygen,
you also take away our consciousness. And remember...
We must explain how the whole process includes elements
of *unconsciousness*. *And* consciousness.
.
Am 08.02.2018 um 19:57 schrieb Jeremy H. Denisovan:
On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 3:33:27 PM UTC-8, wilddild wrote:
(By the way, I don't think everything's conscious.)
certainly not alot folks down in Washington, DC huh?
(couldn't pass that up)
Here's a question for people who believe it is meaningful
to speculate that 'everything is conscious'.
First, watch this Facebook video: https://www.facebook.com/ScienceNaturePage/videos/1268449219954000/
Now, answer the question:
When a person's brain is deprived of oxygen to the point that
the person goes unconscious (or dies), what does this
even mean if all of reality is supposedly 'conscious'?
Their entire body is still lying there, with all of its billions
of cells intact. But they're not conscious any more. If that
entire collection of cells is somehow 'conscious' (as it would
need to be if consciousness permeates all of reality),
then why is the person now unconscious (or dead)?? :)
I'm pointing out that a panpsychist (if there really are any)
must much more carefully define what is meant by the claim
that "consciousness permeates reality".
When I'm sound asleep in the deepest sleep stage, how am I
still conscious, if it's true that consciousness permeates
all of reality, including presumably the entire reality of
my sleeping self, which is STILL my complete collection of
living cells, just as it is when I am awake.
Conclusion:
I am not merely a conscious being. I am also an unconscious being.
"The combination problem." LOL. What an understatement.
As if somehow any 'conglomerate' of 'particles' can be conscious.
As if 'entanglement' necessarily implies consciousness or is
the most important factor related to it.
I don't think they have the slightest chance of illuminating
human consciousness without deeper knowledge of neurology.
Panpsychism is nothing but wild speculation at this point,
however difficult it may be for philosophers to intellectually
wrap their heads around consciousness.
Dualism is wrong. There's no good evidence of consciousness
separate from matter.
Strict materialism is also wrong. There's no evidence that
just any old 'conglomerate' of matter can become conscious.
You don't just pile up or 'entangle' more and more particles
to make more and more 'consciousness'. :)
Panpsychism is pure speculation based largely on principles of
quantum entanglement. Entirely premature and unsatisfying.
Something to make college students say "golly gee Mr.
Philosophy Prof".
Philosophers simply need to notice that a living brain is
much more than ANY of these concepts. A brain is an amazingly
complex living system with a billion year history of evolution.
Also... again:
I am not merely a conscious entity.
I am also an unconscious entity.
You don't just have to explain how it is that we are conscious.
You must also explain how we are also unconscious.
Humans (and other animals) are BOTH.
So we have to explain *unconsciousness* as well.
Consciousness is like a burning wood fire. It is not just
the wood that burns. Nor is it just the spark of energy that
ignites the wood. Nor is it only the oxygen that allows wood
to continue igniting in real time. The burning fire is the
full *process* of all three of these interacting - the wood,
the energy to ignite, the oxygen to keep the fire burning,
plus all the physical principles involved in that interaction,
which are the foundation of how our universe evolved. If you
take away ANY element, the fire dies, and ALL the elements
are necessary for the fire to burn.
It's as if philosophers are asking... what is the fire itself
apart from the wood, the energy to ignite, and oxygen feeding it?
But 'the fire' doesn't really have an 'essence' or a separate
explanation apart from the entire process involved in its burning.
Human consciousness is similar. It requires physical systems
of cellular organization that evolved over hundreds of millions
of years; it requires the input energy of air, water and food;
and it requires all the principles involved in *how* these things
evolved to interact, as well as the full *process* of how these
systems continually *do* interact in real-time.
Thus, consciousness is a major aspect of the ongoing process
of LIFE. Just as with fire, if you take away our oxygen,
you also take away our consciousness. And remember...
We must explain how the whole process includes elements
of *unconsciousness*. *And* consciousness.
.
I didn't read all of your rant, i'm not interested in atheist bullshit!
JFYI, there's been reported cases in clinical deaths longer then 15
minutes including hypoxia (following an eeg = 0) that been revived and
had no major damages afterwards (just for the miracle part) and reported
near death experiences (consciousness proven during clinical death
through observing clinical environment and reporting afterwards -> consciousness after death).
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